[R] two questions for R beginners

[Saeed Abu Nimeh]

sorry meant community not committee

On 2/26/10 8:36 PM, Saeed Abu Nimeh wrote:
> Hi Ivan,
>
> On 2/26/10 6:30 AM, Ivan Calandra wrote:
>> You are definitely right...
>> What to do with bad beginner's questions is not a simple issue.
>>
>> If a "beginner's mailing list" is created, who will answer to such
>> questions?
>
> If I subscribe to the beginners mailing list, then I have to expect
> novice questions and I should be willing to help. Otherwise, I should
> not be there.
>
> And moreover, the beginners won't take advantage of the other
>> questions (I've personally learned a lot trying to understand the
>> questions and answers to other's problems).
>
> They can still subscribe to the advanced, but they will know that they
> are here to observe and learn, not to ask novice questions. You want to
> ask basic stuff, go to the beginners list :)
>
> Not sure if you guys have been on some of the linux mailing lists out
> there, but man let me tell you, some of these lists have a RTFM attitude
> and they will fry you if you ask novice questions. Frankly, that is
> understandable, as most of the members are geeks and they have higher
> expectations. This mailing list is different, I have seen posts from
> different disciplines; biology, biostats, stats, computer science,
> oceanography, etc. So, IMO, there should be a beginners list to cope
> with such broad committee.
>
> Thanks,
> Saeed
>
> And also, as you said, the
>> problems might persist.
>> The beginner's mailing list might be good in one aspect though: the
>> "experts" who subscribe to it would be willing to help the beginners to
>> get started with R, knowing that the questions might not be clearly
>> stated.
>>
>> As you pointed out, the mailing list is not the best for basic stuff
>> (the question is of course "what is basic?"). Not everybody knows some
>> colleagues who work with R (I'm personally the 1st one to use R in my
>> lab).
>> I think, somehow and I have no idea how, documentation and guidance to
>> search for help should be more accessible as soon as you start with R.
>> Maybe a _*clear*_ section on the R homepage or in the "introduction to
>> R" manual like "where to find help", including all of the most common
>> and useful resources available (from "?" and RSiteSearch() to R Wiki and
>> Crantastic).
>>
>> I hope that this whole discussion might help to make the R world better.
>> Thank you Patrick for initiating it!
>> Regards,
>> Ivan
>>
>> Le 2/26/2010 15:09, Paul Hiemstra a écrit :
>>> Ivan Calandra wrote:
>>>> Since you want input from beginners, here are some thoughts
>>>>
>>>> I had and still have two big problems with R:
>>>> - this vectorization thing. I've read many manuals (including R
>>>> inferno), but I'm still not completely clear about it. In simple
>>>> examples, it's fine. But when it gets a bit more complex, then...
>>>> Related to it, the *apply functions are still a bit difficult to
>>>> understand. When I have to use them, I just try one and see what
>>>> happens. I don't understand them well enough to know which one I need.
>>>> - the second problem is where to find the functions/packages I need.
>>>> There are many options, and that's actually the problem. R Wiki,
>>>> Rseek, RSiteSearch, Crantastic, etc... When you start with R, you
>>>> discover that the capabilities of R are almost unlimited and you
>>>> don't really know where to start, where to find what you need.
>>>>
>>>> As noted in earlier posts, the mailing list is really great, but some
>>>> people are really hard with beginners. It was noted in a discussion a
>>>> few days ago, but it looks like some don't realize how difficult it
>>>> is at the beginning to formulate a good question, clear, with
>>>> self-contained example and so on. Moreover, not everybody speaks
>>>> English natively. I don't mean that you must help, even when the
>>>> question is really vague and not clear and whatever. I'm just saying
>>>> that if you don't want to help (whatever the reason), you don't have
>>>> to say it badly. But in any cases, the mailing list is still really
>>>> helpful. As someone noted (sorry I erased the email so I don't
>>>> remember who), it might be a good idea to split it.
>>> Hi everyone,
>>>
>>> My 2ct about the mailing list :). I understand that beginners have a
>>> hard time formulating a good question. But the problem is that we
>>> can't answer the question when it is unclear. So either I:
>>>
>>> - Don't bother answering
>>> - Try do discuss with the author of the question, taking lots of time
>>> to find out what exactly is the question.
>>> - Send a "read the posting guide" answer
>>>
>>> I mostly do the first, as I have to get things done during my PhD :).
>>> So this leaves us with kind of a problem, the person mailing the list
>>> doesn't have the knowledge to ask the right question, the list can't
>>> answer properly and consequently, the person mailing the list still
>>> doesn't get the information he/she needs. We could start an R-beginner
>>> mailing list, but this would also suffer from this problem. What do
>>> you guys think?
>>>
>>> Maybe the mailing list is not the right medium for really basic stuff.
>>> For that I would recommend a good R-book or (better) a course in R or
>>> (even better) some colleagues who work with R that you can ask
>>> questions to.
>>>
>>> cheers,
>>> Paul
>>>>
>>>> Hope that's what you wanted
>>>> Ivan
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Le 2/26/2010 08:39, Dieter Menne a écrit :
>>>>>
>>>>> Patrick Burns wrote:
>>>>>> * What were your biggest misconceptions or
>>>>>> stumbling blocks to getting up and running
>>>>>> with R?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> (This derives partly from teaching)
>>>>>
>>>>> The fact that this xapply-stuff was not idempotent (worse: not
>>>>> always) and
>>>>> that you need a monster like do.call() to straighten this out.
>>>>> Nowadays,
>>>>> plyr comes close.
>>>>>
>>>>> The concept of environment. With S it was worse, though.
>>>>>
>>>>> That you cannot change values "passed by reference". I noted that
>>>>> the latter
>>>>> is no problem for students who have not worked with c(++/#) before.
>>>>> That
>>>>> there is only one return-result in functions.
>>>>>
>>>>> "[" and the likes as an operator.
>>>>>
>>>>> 10 years ago, when I started, the message was: S4 is the future, S3 is
>>>>> legacy. So I learned S4. Only to never use is in self-written code
>>>>> later.
>>>>> Might be different for BioConductor people.
>>>>>
>>>>> That sometimes you can use vectors not in data= (lattice), and
>>>>> sometimes not
>>>>> (ggplot2). Still a VERY confusing inconsistency.
>>>>>
>>>>> The "why-does-this-not-print" FAQ.
>>>>>
>>>>> Why does par(oma..) not work with lattice?
>>>>>
>>>>> Dieter
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ______________________________________________
>>>> R-help at r-project.org mailing list
>>>> https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help
>>>> PLEASE do read the posting guide
>>>> http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html
>>>> and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> [[alternative HTML version deleted]]
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ______________________________________________
>> R-help at r-project.org mailing list
>> https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help
>> PLEASE do read the posting guide
>> http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html
>> and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code.